gold brass vs yellow brass trumpets/trombones?

gold brass vs yellow brass trumpets/trombones?
I wonder if anyone has experimented with using what brass instrument folks refer to as "gold brass" or "rose brass" for resonators on organ pipes? This is brass with a higher copper content that results, at the extreme, in the metal having a pinkish cast. Many brass players feel that it imparts a warmer, "darker" sound to their horns. (OTOH, many think this is bunk!) I just bought a new tuba and ended up picking the gold brass model in a semi-blind play -*test*-('"). The other commonly agreed upon reason brass players buy them is that they look georgeous, and I thought they might look great and a tad unusual in the organ I'm designing. I'm curious if there is any lore in the organ community about the effect of brass composition on the sound of trumpet/trombone pipes.

Great subject Roger! In terms of brass banding circles I’ve never heard any rumours that the type of brass used to make instruments affects the tone quality. My trumpet is of the usual yellow brass appearance, though I did try a copper-brass type one once and can’t say I noticed the difference (if anything I found it worse, but probably because being much older than my one the valves were quite worn). So what about silver-finished instruments? I’ve never really thought about it before, but are these just for aesthetics, or does a strict “Silver Band” actually sound different to a brass band? I have a silver cornet too, though this naturally differs in timbre from the trumpet by having a smaller mouthpiece and more mitres (giving it a far more mellow tone, and at the same time making it harder to play). Coming back to the organ world, Frank Lythgoe’s 98 key Marenghi (ex Tom Alberts) has all copper-finish trumpets and trombones, all 39 of them (see ‘On Display’ page 60, also the front cover). I believe there was some alteration in terms of position of these resonators at some point in time, perhaps when Ronnie Stokes worked on the instrument, though don’t know how old they are. From some old private recordings I have which were made back in the late 60s, these trumpets and trombones certainly sound the part, and are the reason why I rate this as my personal favourite Marenghi. A very well balanced instrument with plenty of character and history, which I remember seeing from an early age at the then Bishop’s Castle steam rally. The Anderton and Rowland Marenghi probably has the most famous set of brass resonators, though look carefully and you can see some of the trombone resonators have a copper finish, so I wonder how this came about. It is known that none brass work is original to the organ, in fact being added by Chiappas when they extended the organ to include these fine-sounding editions. I’ve only ever seen yellow brass resonators on Gaviolis, Wurlitzers, recent Verbeecks and Whiteheads etc. so I guess copper coloured ones would make an interesting change, whether for aesthetic or acoustic reasons. Even more unusual, why not experiment with silver? All the best, Nick

there is endless discussion of the merits of lacquer vs bare brass vs silver vs gold brass among brass players. The consensus is that the sound differences are small relative to almost any other variable. It is argued that the finish makes a bigger difference in smaller instruments like trumpets than in large instruments like tubas. Some assert that there are differences more apparent to the player than the listener. The most sensible seem to agree that differences, if any, are small, probably smaller than horn-to-horn variation from a host of other causes. These same people often shell out hundreds of extra dollars for silver plate instruments because they like the way they look. Having owned a silver tuba for years now I can -*test*-('")ify to one significant maintenance issue with respect to silver plating organ parts-- tarnish and keeping them shiny. Especially in an environment with coal smoke with sulfur content like a steam fair I would think that silver trumpet pipes would tarnish almost immediately and that one would be constantly polishing. Nickel plate might be a better choice-- I don't know how long the appearance of nickel will hold up with or without a lacquer overcoat. It seems to me that bare nickel needs polishing every now and again to stay shiny.

Hello everyone, I have never noticed these two Marenghis having brass trombones before. I have seen both of these organs on numerous occasions & they have always had the usual mitred wooden ones. Is it me? Rob.

Hi Rob, On the A&R the brass trombones (19 of them on lower melody section F to B) are on the side wings above the 20 trumpets (counter melody A to F, aka Piston), and they form the trombone chant register. These are quite different to the 8 wooden trombones within the main case for the bass section. The 90 degree mitres on the brass trombones resonators are made further back than the trumpets and as such the length of the trombones is longer than they appear from a front on view. The overall scaling does differ between too between trombones and trumpets, the trombones having a wider diameter tube but more gradual flaring at the bell. Much the same I’m sure on Frank Lythcoe’s Marenghi though it’s less clear which are forming the trombone mixture as all copper-brass work has quite a large flare at the bell. In terms of organs with brass bass trombone resonators then the 89-G4 Gavioli rebuilt by Dean Organs for Mr Hayward springs to mind, this having 8 upward facing resonators that were quite expensively restored and kept in original form. Also most Gavioli Trumpet Barrel organs had brass bass resonators, though usually only three, perhaps 6 if a larger scale of barrel was used. All the best, Nick

The brass "trombones on 98-key Marenghis are correctly called "Trombone Chant" to place them on the melody section. The copper ones on Lyghgoe's organ are obviously not original, snd if you listen very carefully, don't match the rest of the organ. All pipe ranks in an organ should play the same "vowel" sound, as if sung by a choir. This might seem far-fetched in view of the very different types of pipes in an organ, but there can be very different shapes and sizes of singers in a choir, singing in very different voices, but they all sing the same vowel sounds at the same time. This applies to an organ, although the voicer isn't aware of it at the time. The vowel sound of Lythgoe's 98-key changes when the brass registers are brought on. Conversely, the vowel sound of the A&R is constant. Incidentally, I owned the Hayward Gavioli for four years in the 1980s, but I never had any time to work on it. The brass trombone resonators were in a very poor condition with most of them missing their bells, having been melted in the fire. Regards, John

Hello everyone, I see. So you are calling the higher pitched melody brass trumpets 'trumpets', the lower melody brass trumpets 'trombones', & the wooden bass trombones 'trombones' as well. Very confusing! What about the counter melody trumpets? I always thought that the side wing brass work played on counter melody. The resonators look much too long for melody pitch. Or are they 16' pitch? Confused from Spalding....

Hello, me again, The only organ I have seen with 8 brass bass trombones is the Saunders 98k Gavioli, which of course used to be a barrel organ. Interestingly, Andrew Pilmer also added a second rank of wooden trombones, also a rank of forte saxophones, during the re-modelling, both on the outside of the case. Neither of which can be heard from the front. Plenty of spares then..... Still confused, still from Spalding....

From old pictures I’ve seen, the Saunders 98 key (ex Barlow) had originally just six brass bass trombone resonators, as this was the number required from the bespoke barrel scale. It still has just the six prominent bass trombones at the front above the trumpets, the other two ‘hiding’ at the sides to fit them in! Built by Gavioli & Cie circa 1886, the organ was an 84 key TBO, still retained it’s barrel mechanism prior to the Andrew Pilmer rebuild. I’m not sure where the extra pipework comes into it either Rob, though I do love the sound of the trumpets on this organ. It is important to understand the difference between trombones playing the bass notes, as in this case, and the trombone chant (lower melody) register in the case of the larger 98-key Marenghi organs.

Hi all, I maybe wrong but does Alan Baldry's 98key Limonaire have brass trombones and also I have noticed that Keith Honours 48key Page & Howard has four brass trumpets/trombones, two on each side case, which are they trumpets or trombones and why only four, unless some of them are hidden? Eddy.

Hi Eddy, Is the 48 key P&H organ you mention the “Four Seasons”? I’ve seen the brass resonator bells high up in the drum wings too, and came to the conclusion there were just for show as you can only see the actual bell parts. Anyone know otherwise? All the best, Nick

Hi Nick, Yes it is the four seasons, I also thought it was a bit odd why they would only have four trumpets unless there is actually a reason for this? best wishes, Eddy

gold brass vs yellow brass trumpets/trombones?
Hello all, With regard to 'The Four Seasons', Chris Edmonds (the original owner) decided to make/have made a number of changes to the organ. These included a much larger bass drum as well as the brass resonator bells described by Nick & Eddy. These are actually manually operated and are used for added effect on an appropiate piece of music in a similar way to the 'toy counter' on a theatre organ. The organ also underwent what I believe was decribed on the cassete box as 'Tonal alterations' these being carried out in two stages, the first by Kevin Meayers & the second by Dean Organs. Chris is a very knowledgable man both musically & with regard to any aspect of the preservation movement, I believe he had a lot to do with the design of the front for the organ, as well as the construction of the very ornate organ trailer (no longer used) which was decorated to an exceedingly high standard. He has owned at least 3 organs, the other 2 being the 89 key Marenghi 'Lady Hamilton' (now with the always cheerful Mike Priestner) & the 65 key Gaudin (sold to the late Jimmy Williams for use in his gallopers), as well as having owned a number of steam engines (the first at the age of 14!) & the very novel 'Pilgrim steam railway' which attended many rallies until the early 90's. I hope the above is of some use. Best wishes, Trevor.

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