28 note organ.

The only person I can think of, offhand, is Dave Ingalls of Schenectady, New York. He has built several instruments and the page for the Norman-type organ is here on his website: http://members.tripod.com/~mmusic_2/norman.html his main website is here: http://members.tripod.com/~mmusic_2/index.html You could try contacting him at the email listed on his website, but I can't guarantee anything, since I have never tried to email him, and do not know the man personally. Also, I have not heard one of these 28-note organs before, so I don't know how good (or otherwise) they sound. Supposedly, they are based on the Wurlitzer 125 scale, sans the 13 trumpet notes, but I could be wrong about this, also. Best of luck, Andrew

Hi Andrew. Thanks for the info. And you're right about it being based on the Wurlitzer 125 minus the trumpet notes. I built one myself about 15 years ago, although a friend of mine has it now. I think it is quite a good scale to work with, and have to say, sounds very good. Having 5 bass notes is very useful. However, knowing what I know now, I would have incorporated extra pipework, as the bellows are more than adequate to cope with much more being thrown at them. And the card music, being the same size as 30 key, would allow percussion to be added also. But that would make it just another 30 keyless organ. So I kept with the original design. I've often wondered what experiences other people have had in building one. Maybe now, I'll find out. Cheers Steve

Hi Steve, all, My organ is to the Roy Norman 28 key design as far as the bourdens go, you copied me a set of drawings about 10 years ago after a visit to the Lincoln Show, together with wise words & encouragement. Project laid idle for a few years but now under way again. So far it has transmogrified into a 48 key machine (chromatic chanel 2 or Alan Pell 'Midi' channel 1) and I am making a rank of Carl Frei Violins to add to it. Then I am adding a full rank of 16' bass pipes. So I have Gavioli bourdens (that's what Roy Norman says anyway) and Carl Frei violins. I believe the 16' bass pipes I have dimensions for may have originated from Judith Howard but I don't know. All a bit of a 'bodge up' you may be thinking but I am having fun and if it doesn't sound too dreadful I shall be happy enough. You are right about the belows, so far coping very well. As I am not building anything in particular I have the luxury of 'blue sky thinking'. Rather than fit a glock (which everybody seems to have) might I fit a set of tubular bells? Are there any drawings? Do I use aluminium tubing? Length is, I think, not an issue as I am not mitring the 16' pipes & I guess the pipes (tubes?) would not exceed them in length. Edward.

Hi Edward. Yes, I do remember you from 10 years ago. Often wondered whether you carried on with the project. Glad you did. And it sounds like you're doing well. I'd like to see it when it's finished. Let me know where it's appearing. I've moved since we last spoke, so I'll pm you my details. Steve.

... might I fit a set of tubular bells? Are there any drawings? Do I use aluminium tubing? I would have thought aluminium as a material is somewhat "dead" compared to steel or even brass. The resulting sound might not ring as much as you would expect. Regards, John

Hi all, I do not like to mention 'Victory' in the same sentance as my home made contrivance: but as I recall 'Victory' has one (two?, three?) ranks of tubular bells at the back on both sides of the main ranks of pipes. As I recall they were coloured and I figured them out to be annodised aluminium. I assume I am wrong. Obviously the pipes get shorter the higher the note, I also assume the diameter gets smaller as well? I guess I fiddle about with some steel pipe and a small hammer, unless someone out there can offer a 'leg up' as they have been there before............ I believe I was advised that bourdens halve in cross section every 17 pipes (don't quote me on the exact number as I am just back from work & my brain is like jelly) so it seems logical that idealy the cross section of the pipes ought to be incremental in the same way, which therfor implies each pipe is a different diameter - which sounds a complete nightmare! as ever many thanks to you all, Edward.

Edward, I once worked on a set of tubular bells, and seem to remember them to be steel. They were very thin-walled, so ordinary pipe would be useless and extremely heavy. They were all the SAME diameter, and chrome-plated. I had them re-plated and polished. Only their lengths differed through the scale. Again, I'm unable to be precise, but I would imagine them to halve on the 13 note? Your best bet would be to befreind the owner of an organ with such bells, and get to inspect them closely. Bob Ince of Thursford (not owner, but restorer) springs to mind. Regards, John

Hello everyone, Yes I suppose in theory tubular bells should decrease in diameter & wall thickness as they get shorter. I too have seen them all the same diameter though, so it must be a standard thing. Steel or brass seems to be the material of choice although aluminium would probably be OK, a bit duller maybe, as John pointed out. Glockenspiels with aluminium bars sound duller than steel ones. It also depends what you hit it with, & how hard you hit it! I always think they are a waste of time on organs, unless you arrange a special solo part for them, like the Thursford Carl Frei with it's humorous introductory peal at the start of some tunes. Why not have a Grelotphone, my favourite!? David England from Norwich has an old theatre organ set on his organ, which started life as one of our modulars, why not have a chat with him? Cheers, Rob.

Hi, Interesting, I know the harder gear teeth are the more they ring so I guess it follows that if tubular bells were thin walled high carbon steel tubing, hardenned and tempered to just light straw, they ought to ring nicely. Lots to think about here. I have been looking up grelotphones in Cockayne (arpart from all you good folk my refference work) and now know what they are! I have spun several steam engine chimney caps so have enough knowledge to make the tooling to do the deed. However I suspect they would need to be hard brass and not annealed - and you need them annealed to spin. Perhaps the bells are pressed, again I could make the tooling. As usual I hit the buffers of ignorance and lack of drawings. I do warm to making all the bits, so using second hand bells I guess is cheating. The Marenghi grelotphone in Cockayne shows the bells different sizes, I therfor guess the diameter = note it plays. Yes? as ever thanks, Edward.

Hi Edward, If you have ever been to th Amersham Fair Organ Museum (Ted Reed's) the 89key Marenghi has a very nice grelotphone installed. Indeed the lower notes have much larger bells & fewer of them as they are louder. The higher notes being smaller and maybe less audible, consist of many bells to compensate. Marenghi grelotphones seem to be quite an involved bit of kit. Apart from making the bells in the first place -an art in itself, the mechanism consists of what appears to be a leather strap, one for each note, plus a mechanism that agitates/reciterates them when in play. Amersham's Marenghi grelotphone can be manually turned off though, as it can get on your nerves sometimes! Regards Robert Washington :org: PS Just realised you are only 'down the road' from me!

Hello everyone, Well, the Crotals (as individual sleigh bells are known) are cast steel or brass, & were originally made by the Whitechapel Bell Foundry, but they have given all their moulds to a bell making museum. I have written about all this at length somewhere else on the forum. The steel balls are cast first, then placed in the centre of a lost wax mould for the outer shell. Yes they change diameter & wall thickness as you go up the scale, as for pipes. The ball gets smaller as well. You can buy pressed & folded ones but as far as I know they are not in tuned sets. You can buy cast brass sets but they need a lot of wok to bring them into tune. Favourite subject. Sorry. Rob.

sleigh bell source
Here is a source for traditional cast, tuned sleigh bells: Vermont Bell Company 4683 Vt Route 12 Randolph, VT (Vermont) 05060-8719 USA Phone: (802) 728-6060 Their web site has gone off line, so you'd have to use snail mail or the phone to talk to them. When last I investigated they made graduated bell sets that could be tuned. Cheers, Roger

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